Ariel Shapiro | The Verge

Voices from Gaza are coming through in podcasts

2024-06-01T09:00:00-04:00

Unsettled host Ilana Levinson spent two months trying to reach one of her contacts in Gaza for an interview. She had stayed in touch with Isam Hammad, a manager for a medical equipment company in Gaza City, since covering his work organizing the March of Return protest in 2018. But after he fled the city in November, the two hadn’t shared much more than the occasional WhatsApp voice note with one another.

When Levinson finally got ahold of Hammad in January, he was in Rafah, trying to get his family to Ireland on a family reunification visa. “I have no internet,” he said. “I have had to wake up every night since I made my [visa] application and go to the rooftop, turn on Vodafone Egypt, get the internet, check the list, and go back to sleep.”

Levinson and her co-producers spent years building relationships with peace activists from Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank. They now find themselves in the position of having access to people on the ground who can give frank accounts of what is happening — access that has been increasingly hard to come by as the war churns on with no end in sight. That is especially true in Gaza, where foreign journalists are barred from entering unescorted by the Israel Defense Forces, connectivity is spotty at best, and more than 1.7 million people have been displaced from their homes.

“There is a real need for it in this moment.”

“I think after October 7th, people were really craving these personal stories and context,” said Levinson. “We felt a real obligation toward those new and existing listeners — there is a real need for it in this moment.”

For the media, maintaining access to Gaza has been a challenge, both due to limited communications within the region and strict limitations on physical entry from the outside.

Daniel Estrin, NPR’s international correspondent in Israel, reported from Gaza many times during his tenure at NPR. But since the start of the war, his access has been whittled down to the occasional IDF-guided tour just across the border. A colleague based in Gaza, reporter and photographer Anas Baba, shares accounts and sound from inside the enclave, but Baba has to navigate the same communications blackouts as everyone else.

As a member of the board of the Foreign Press Association of Israel, Estrin was party to a petition sent to the Israeli Supreme Court demanding access to Gaza. “This war is unprecedented in the amount of time that Israel has prevented journalists from entering independently into a war zone,” Estrin said. The petition was denied.

Even within Israel, it can be difficult to get people to talk. Israel Story, known as the Israeli This American Life, normally operates as a seasonal, narrative show produced in English and Hebrew that sticks to decidedly nonpolitical topics like buses and cows. But after October 7th, the show shifted into high gear, sending its producers out to all corners of the country gathering people’s perspectives. The result has been Wartime Diaries, a collection of more than four dozen episodes featuring Israeli citizens impacted by the war. They have included accounts from an archeologist who picked through the ruins of Kibbutz Nir Oz, a Druze journalist fighting for equal rights for his people within Israel, and a resident of a settlement in Gaza who dreams of returning.

Many Israeli-Arab people are afraid to go on the record amid a state crackdown on speech

The series struck a chord with American-Jewish listeners in particular who want to feel connected to Israel during this crisis. Downloads for Israel Story have tripled since before the war, and host Mishy Harman and senior producer Yochai Maital began hosting live shows in the US earlier this month.

But the show has struggled to get Israeli-Arab people — who make up 20 percent of the population of Israel — to agree to participate in the Wartime Diaries series. Harman says that many are afraid to go on the record amid a state crackdown on speech that has targeted Israeli-Arabs in particular.

“I think we’ve accrued a reputation as being an honest broker. However, I do think that we are not actually living up to that reputation at the moment,” Harman said. “We really are telling a [Jewish] Israeli story here.”

The challenge has put an emphasis on the news outlets that were already well established in the region. Al Jazeera, which had staff based in the Gaza Strip before the war, has become a leading source for audiences in the US and Europe due to its established access — access that has been imperiled by a recent ban inside Israel as a result of the outlet’s reporting. It has also thrust The Take, Al Jazeera’s daily news podcast, into the spotlight.

“In this moment, people are really paying attention.”

“With the dearth of access, Al Jazeera is this eye into Gaza. That puts a lot of responsibility on everyone’s shoulders,” said The Take executive producer Alexandra Locke. “What are you going to do with that lens? And how are you going to digest that into a podcast?”

The show has shifted most of its coverage to the war, featuring dispatches from Al Jazeera reporters about the increasingly dire humanitarian and security situation in the enclave. And while most of Al Jazeera’s audience is consuming the news through TV or the website, The Take’s team focuses on what audio alone can deliver.

“When you are listening while you’re on your daily commute or washing dishes, and then you stop because you hear tears or you hear what an airstrike sounds like — there’s just something so powerful about that, that no picture can even really can encompass,” said The Take host Malika Bilal.

Other podcasts have worked around the lack of access. NPR’s Throughline, a series that frames current events within historical context, has seen boosts in listenership around episodes that thoughtfully explore topics like the rise of Israel’s right wing and the origins of Hamas. “You often need to look at something from a 360-degree perspective, which requires you to potentially step back and cover the same moment in time from different vantage points,” said co-host Rund Abdelfatah.

Audio war reporting is a century-old practice, but the shows that are able to gain access today can have an even larger impact thanks to podcasting’s global reach. At the time Unsettled aired Hammad’s story in January, he was hitting a wall getting his wife and five kids out of Gaza. Because his son is an Irish citizen, there was a pathway to get some, but not all, of his family members out on a family reunification visa.

Hammad shared on the podcast that his son in Ireland has cerebral palsy. That resonated with a listener in Ireland who has a child with a nonverbal disability as well. After hearing the episode, she got in touch with Hammad, lobbied local politicians, and worked with the Irish government to get him and his family out in March. They are now together in Dublin, waiting until it is safe to return to Gaza.

“For so long, it hasn’t felt like people are even paying attention to what happens in Israel and Palestine,” Levinson said. “In this moment, people are really paying attention, and I’m overwhelmed that it’s possible for journalism to have this kind of impact.”

The podcast industry keeps reinventing itself

2024-04-18T14:30:00-04:00

Alex Castro / The Verge" data-has-syndication-rights="1" src="https://platform.theverge.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/chorus/uploads/chorus_asset/file/22954158/acastro_211024_1777_amazonMusic_0001.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&crop=0,0,100,100" />

This is Hot Pod, The Verge’s newsletter about podcasting and the audio industry.

Today is my last day at The Verge, and this will be my final issue of Hot Pod. I’ll have one more story coming out in the next week or two. But until then, I wanted to offer some parting thoughts on the industry I have covered so closely for the past two years.

I have this thing in my career where I always get to the party too late. I joined my college newspaper just as it was becoming clear that printing a daily no longer mathed out. I had a good year at the Melissa Harris-Perry show on MSNBC shortly before the beloved executive producer left and the program imploded. I missed the heady old days at Forbes when magazine writers would drink champagne on a boat on the company’s dime. Maybe I am a bad luck charm, or maybe I am just too stuck in old ways of thinking about media.

In some ways, I think the same holds true for my time at Hot Pod. When I started two years ago, there was a lot of excitement. But despite the talent deals and M&A still happening, the anxiety was already there. And you know what happened next.

There are those shows that are adapting to the new landscape and making it work

That said, the party isn’t over for podcasting. This medium is still in its infancy and is becoming an increasingly integral part of the public’s media diet. But I did come in at the end of a particular era. There was a point, now past, that it seemed podcasts might be the new magazines: a place where writers and producers could take their time to focus on in-depth reporting and storytelling. A lot of top journalistic talent flocked to the medium for that reason. And those types of shows are still being made (10 years later, Serial is still at the top of the charts), but as companies withhold their spending on limited series and time- and money-heavy projects, it’s clear that it won’t be at scale.

Podcasting is affected by the same macro forces that have resulted in layoffs and closures across media. The investments have dried up, and every single project needs to be profitable in order to survive. In this way, podcasting is unexceptional. But even if the lofty promises of podcasting’s early days do not come to fruition, there are those shows that are adapting to the new landscape and making it work. I think of Normal Gossip, which manages to combine storytelling and shit-talking in brilliant form and publish often enough to avoid the drop-offs experienced by other seasonal podcasts. Or Unholy: Two Jews on the News, which has used its weekly chat format to feature genuinely challenging conversations at a time when they are really, really necessary. Or Decoder Ring, which has transitioned from seasonal to biweekly, much to my personal benefit. Even if the producers, hosts, and editors deserved better from their corporate overlords than what transpired over the past few years (and they did!), I am hopeful that creators in this industry will continue to innovate.

Another thing that has changed during my time here is how you even define what a podcast is. Nick and I talked about this in 1.5x Speed a few weeks ago, but as so many other types of media cross-pollinate with podcasts — YouTube videos, audiobooks, videos on X — “podcast” seems to be more of an aesthetic than a format. That raises the potential for scale (and scale means money and jobs), but I hope (and am genuinely hopeful, not just because Jake is making me have a good attitude) that podcasting won’t lose its distinction.

As I move on from Hot Pod, I know I will miss this community. I have gotten the chance to meet so many of you at Hot Pod Summit and have emailed with even more readers. Not many media reporters get the opportunity to have a real conversation with their audience, and that has been a privilege.

And now, I have a whole bunch of acknowledgments to make: Jake Kastrenakes for putting up with my nonsense and letting me keep some sass in the newsletter; Esther Cohen and Kara Verlaney for their work making Hot Pod Summit such a success and also keeping my head on my body; Amrita Khalid, who did such an awesome job while I was on maternity leave and still slacking with me constantly about podcasting and whatnot; Mia Sato, for being a great pal and the best tech features writer in the game; Nilay Patel, for hiring me and figuring out how to make AI fun for a podcasting conference; Nick Quah, for having the foresight to make a newsletter about podcasting and continuing to answer my silly little questions; Scott Newman, Jenny Mills, and Jeff Weiner from work x work for letting me clown onstage and also putting together such an incredible industry event (TWICE a year? Forget about it); and, of course, all of you readers! This would be no fun without your insight and gossip.

All the best,

Ariel

An NPR editor accuses the network of institutional bias

2024-04-11T17:00:00-04:00

This is Hot Pod, The Verge’s newsletter about podcasting and the audio industry.

Hi, everyone — I’m starting off today with some big news to share: next week will be my last at Hot Pod and The Verge. Before coming here, all I wanted was to cover the podcasting industry, and I still can’t believe I managed to get a job doing just that. Even when the news was bad (which, let’s be real, was often), I was buoyed by the passion and innovation of this community. It’s been a real privilege getting to know so many of you.

I’ll have a few more stories coming out before I leave as well as some final thoughts on the state of the industry. My colleague Jake Kastrenakes has a note below with more information about the newsletter moving forward.

As for me, I know this is the part where I am supposed to say, “I’ll have more to share about my new job soon,” but ~twist~, there is no new job! I am taking some time at home with my 11-month-old before moving on to the next thing. He is a good little man, if also a menace.

Hey, everyone — Jake here. I wanted to give you all an update on Hot Pod ahead of Ariel’s last day. It’s been a delight reading Ariel’s editions of this newsletter over the past two years, and I’m excited to see what she does next. We’re going to miss having her around.

We won’t have a new writer in place by next week, so we’re planning to put Hot Pod on hiatus while we figure out next steps. Hot Pod has been an important fixture in the podcasting world, and we value the community we’ve helped bring together in this space. You’ll be the first to hear our plans for the future of the newsletter.

Now, back over to Ariel for the day’s news.

Today, debate about NPR’s political leanings after an explosive essay by a former editor was published in The Free Press. Plus, Spotify links up with Substack and SiriusXM adds to its true crime roster.

An NPR editor accuses the network of institutional bias

This one seemed tailor-made for internet outrage. NPR business editor Uri Berliner published an essay in The Free Press titled “I’ve Been at NPR for 25 Years. Here’s How We Lost America’s Trust.” The argument he makes is that the outlet has become orthodox in its progressivism and values racial diversity over “viewpoint diversity,” which has led to an increasingly homogenous audience. “An open-minded spirit no longer exists within NPR, and now, predictably, we don’t have an audience that reflects America,” he wrote.

Response to the piece has been fast and furious. Right-wing outlets now hail Berliner as a “whistleblower.” NPR colleagues criticize him for not seeking comment before publication and putting the blame on staffers of color. NPR chief news executive Edith Chapin sent a memo to staff defending the station’s work and stressing the importance of inclusion as an important part of rigorous journalism. But some former NPR staffers came to his defense, and Berliner said in an interview with Chris Cuomo that colleagues reached out to him privately in agreement. Berliner did not respond to Hot Pod’s request for comment, and according to NPR spokesperson Isabel Lara, is still employed at the network.

There is a lot to be critical of in Berliner’s essay: the way he dismisses race-conscious stories; the fact that he does not take into account how the right’s shifting relationship with media may have something to do with NPR’s changing audience demographics; and how he did not give NPR a chance to respond (journalism 101!). But he does provide one eye-popping stat: among editorial staffers based in the Washington, DC, office, he found 87 registered Democrats and zero (0) ~zero~ Republicans. When he presented this finding to leadership, “The response wasn’t hostile. It was worse,” he writes. “It was met with profound indifference.”

This is remarkable given that NPR has a very specific obligation to its audience (and potential audience). It is a public institution. However pitiful an amount, it does receive public funds. According to Gallup, Democrats make up 28 percent of the electorate, behind Republicans (30 percent) and Independents (41 percent). I am sure that some of you will be angry when I say this, but yes, in order to reflect America, you do need some staffers who understand how the other three-quarters of America thinks.

But whether this is fully NPR’s fault is a different thing. There is a vast, popular, and moneyed right-wing audio ecosystem out there. For young talent coming from more conservative backgrounds, this may be a more appealing option. Never mind how opposition to NPR specifically has become a pet issue on the right. The fracturing of American media is a big, complicated thing, and it can’t be placed in the lap of one institution, no matter how important it may be.

Lightning round

Substack podcast listeners, rejoice! You can now listen to your subscribed shows on Spotify. As it did with Patreon last year, Spotify is allowing users to link their Substack accounts so they can listen to their free and paywalled podcasts on the platform.
The former staffers of WAMU / DCist are forming a worker-owned outlet and seeking name suggestions. There does not appear to be an audio element to the new publication, as of yet. WAMU shut down DCist last month.
The Interactive Advertising Bureau announced its annual Podcast Upfront, which will take place on May 9th. The event will feature presentations by Wondery, iHeartMedia, WNYC, and more. You can check it out here.
Castbox released a ranking of conservative hosts on its app. No surprise, Ben Shapiro was number one with more than 585,000 subscribers, followed by Jordan Peterson (415,000) and Dan Bongino (119,000).
Death, Sex & Money, which was canceled by WNYC and picked up by Slate, will debut its new season on Tuesday, April 16th.
Conan O’Brien did an interview with The Hollywood Reporter. He is (understandably) grateful that he made his deal with SiriusXM before the podcast market took a turn.

Ted Cruz hosts a podcast for free — a Ted Cruz super PAC gets paid

2024-04-09T18:45:00-04:00

This is Hot Pod, The Verge’s newsletter about podcasting and the audio industry. Sign up here for more.

I hope you all had a great weekend/eclipse/first moment of NYC sunshine. Today, I’ve got a look at Ted Cruz’s eyebrow-raising arrangement with iHeart and news on two new acquisitions. Let’s get into it.

iHeart doesn’t pay Ted Cruz for hosting Verdict. It pays a Ted Cruz super PAC.

This is certainly one way to raise campaign money. Sen. Ted Cruz hosts an iHeartMedia podcast, Verdict, which performs reasonably well among right-wing political shows. He does not get paid for hosting the podcast, but reporting in recent weeks from Forbes and the Houston Chronicle shows that iHeart has paid more than $630,000 to a super PAC that supports his campaign. For good reason, this has raised eyebrows, and now a campaign finance watchdog has filed a complaint with the Federal Elections Commission.

This is how the transaction works: Ted Cruz’s leadership PAC, Jobs, Freedom, and Security PAC, produces Verdict. The show is then distributed and monetized by Premiere Networks, a subsidiary of iHeartMedia. Then, according to Premiere Networks, iHeart pays money made from the show’s ads to Truth and Courage PAC, an independent political action committee that supports Cruz’s reelection. “Senator Cruz volunteers his time to host this podcast and isn’t compensated for it,” Rachel Nelson, spokesperson for Premiere Networks, said in a statement to Hot Pod last week.

This is technically true in that paying the money into Truth and Courage is not the same as paying Cruz directly. But he clearly sees a personal benefit, and the Campaign Legal Center argues that it crosses the legal line. “There is reason to believe Cruz has violated federal campaign finance laws that prohibit federal candidates and officeholders from soliciting or directing ‘soft money’ — including money from corporations, which are categorically prohibited from contributing to candidates — in connection with his 2024 reelection efforts,” the group’s complaint reads. Nelson did not respond to a request for comment on the filing.

Cruz’s camp denies any wrongdoing. “Senator Cruz appears on Verdict three times a week for free. He does this to pull back the veil on the corrupt inner workings of Washington — none of which ever get fairly covered,” campaign spokesperson Macarena Martinez told Hot Pod in a statement.

How the FEC rules could have big implications for how politicians are able to leverage podcasting for fundraising purposes. The typical election-cycle relationship between campaigns and the big radio companies is that those campaigns buy up a lot of spots in local markets — it’s a transaction that financially benefits the radio company. But the Cruz situation flips that relationship on its head. Cruz gets the publicity while also making ad money that then gets funneled, if not to his official campaign, then to entities that support it. It’s not clear how replicable this would even be — Cruz is a star who can command a national audience and get ad dollars — but it does set a troubling precedent for the politics-media dynamic.

Behold! Podcast M&A: The Roost acquired by Night, Sony buys Neon Hum

Not so much of this these days. We have not one but two acquisitions announced this week. The Roost, which is the podcasting arm of the recently shuttered Rooster Teeth, has been purchased by influencer talent agency Night. Neon Hum, which previously had Sony Music as an investor, has been bought outright by the music giant. Notably, both companies offer something other than original content.

The Roost, which handles ad sales and distribution for The H3 Podcast and The Kinda Funny Podcast as part of its network, is the last pillar left standing of Rooster Teeth. Rooster Teeth was shut down last month by parent company Warner Bros. Discovery. The agency that is buying it, Night, represents digital stars like MrBeast and Kai Cenat, so it seems like a fit. Plus, Night’s president, Ezra Cooperstein, served as the president of Rooster Teeth between 2018 and 2019. In buying The Roost, Night has acquired a podcasting infrastructure that could be extended to its valuable roster of clients.

With Neon Hum, Sony is also broadening its reach. In addition to originals like Smoke Screen, Neon Hum produced shows for clients like NBC News and HBO Max. As companies scale back on their own podcast units, they turn to production houses like Neon Hum to maintain a podcast presence. In a similar vein, Audacy laid off Pineapple Street Studio staffers who worked on original shows with an intention to focus more on client services.

So, yes: podcast companies can still be acquisition targets, but increasingly, it is the less sexy stuff that sells.

That’s all for today! I’ll be back on Thursday.

Layoffs at Chicago’s podcasting institution

2024-04-05T17:45:00-04:00

Facing financial challenges, Chicago’s WBEZ is axing its podcast unit. Three shows — Nerdette, When Magic Happens, and Making — have been cut, and offshoot music channel Vocalo will cease production on May 1st. Fourteen people have been laid off, including a handful of business roles at the Chicago Sun-Times, which was acquired by WBEZ’s parent company, Chicago Public Media, in 2022.

Chicago Public Media CEO Matt Moog told staffers in a memo that the organization has suffered from a drop in sponsorship, advertising, and membership revenue. To deal with the shortfall, he says that leadership has decided “to focus our resources on producing accessible, trusted news programming that helps all Chicago area residents make informed decisions, participate in our diverse communities and make the most of our region. Importantly, we must reach our audiences where they are across multiple platforms.” In so many words, it’s the broadcast-to-podcast strategy.

WBEZ’s podcasts haven’t had quite the national profile of some other member station shows, with one big caveat. This American Life started at WBEZ and launched Serial as a spinoff before becoming an independent company in 2015. WBEZ still lists TAL and Serial on its podcast page, and TAL still pays a portion of its revenue to WBEZ. In the past two fiscal years, TAL brought in more money for WBEZ than the rest of its digital sponsorship revenue combined.

Still, the idea that WBEZ can’t sustain its podcast arm is alarming for those at the station. “It’s only been two years since we were big enough and financially healthy enough to acquire the Sun-Times,” WBEZ criminal justice reporter Patrick Smith wrote on X. “We are losing friends and extremely valuable colleagues. It’s outrageous.”

WBEZ joins the ranks of WNYC, KCRW in LA, Colorado Public Radio, and WAMU in Washington, DC, in cutting staff to deal with a sharp decline in sponsorships. WBUR in Boston has not yet taken that step, but its CEO, Margaret Low, put in stark terms how dire the situation is: “Sponsorship dollars won’t return to previous levels. These are not temporary ups and downs. They’re long-term shifts,” she wrote in an open letter to listeners last month.

Like so many other segments of media, public radio is in a crisis and has less flexibility than for-profit institutions to claw its way out. I certainly don’t have the solution, but if any of you in the public media world have thoughts on the path forward, feel free to reach out at ariel.shapiro@theverge.com.

**Two more Suits alums get a podcast deal**

As public radio struggles financially, rewatch podcasts are thriving. SiriusXM has tapped former Suits stars Patrick J. Adams and Sarah Rafferty to host a new show breaking down the legal drama. Adams and Rafferty are co-creators and co-executive producers of the project, which does not yet have an announced launch date.

This is a totally unremarkable programming choice except for how it represents a confluence of a few big trends. Rewatch podcasts won’t die and have become a major avenue for out-of-the-spotlight stars to reclaim some fame. After years of precious, eight-episode limited series, audiences are increasingly turning to the medical, legal, and criminal procedurals of old. It’s even royal family-adjacent (will they get the scoop on American Riviera Orchard??). It’s podcasting for the ChatGPT age. I would say that I hate it, but I guess I can’t begrudge SiriusXM giving the people what they want.

Lightning Round

Google Podcasts is officially dead. My colleague David Pierce had a piece for The Verge on why this is just the latest misstep by the tech giant.
Bloomberg reports that Spotify is planning to raise its prices this year as the company focuses on increasing margin. The company’s stock is up 15 percenhot pot since the news broke.
The News Agents, a massively popular British daily news show hosted by former BBC stars Emily Maitlis, Jon Sopel, and Lewis Goodall, has split with its production partner, Persephonica. Deadline also reports that Persephonica CEO Dino Sofos is the “prince of podcasts” — I was genuinely unaware we had a royal family.
Stephanie Kuo has been promoted to VP of Content at PRX. Kuo has been at the company since 2018 and recently was the director of content development.
SB Nation, which is owned by Vox Media (which owns The Verge and Hot Pod), is ending 12 of its sports podcasts, many of which were dedicated to individual teams. “Podcasting remains a core part of Vox Media’s business and SB Nation will continue to explore and invest in opportunities in the space,” Vox Media spokesperson Aude White told Hot Pod in a statement.
Senator Ted Cruz was confronted by a local reporter about recent reports that indicate the money made from his iHeartMedia podcast is funneled into a super PAC supporting his campaign. He reacted about how you would expect.
Call Her Daddy’s Alex Cooper is being tapped to host Olympics watch parties for Peacock. Good for her!

Huberman fans aren’t leaving the show behind

2024-04-03T14:45:00-04:00

This is Hot Pod, The Verge’s newsletter about podcasting and the audio industry. Sign up here for more.

I have never gotten so many responses to an issue as I did with last week’s on Andrew Huberman. He seems to elicit an even stronger response than Rogan, though perhaps response to Rogan has calmed down as we have all gotten more used to his shenanigans. Today, I have a look at what some of you all had to say about the value of his podcast and how the revelations from the New York Magazine article have (or have not) changed that. Plus, Spotify’s audiobook expansion, The New York Times’ new audio initiative, and Apple’s (alleged) pay-for-play scheme. Let’s get into it.

Andrew Huberman, reconsidered

ICYMI: NYM published an 8,000-word piece that looked critically at Huberman’s complicated romantic life (he allegedly maintained multiple relationships simultaneously and lied about it to the women he was seeing) and his expertise on wellness. Does it change how listeners engage with him? On a macro level, no: his show still ranks in the top 15 on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Among the kind of people who read a newsletter about podcasting each week (hey, that’s you!), it’s more varied.

Some Hot Pod readers came to his defense, particularly when it comes to his approach to scientific subjects:

“I think people underestimate how being trained at the PhD level and as a research scientist imparts a set of skills that is absolutely transferrable to more than one field within that broader discipline. Part of the training you get, for example, is in understanding the ins and outs of scientific methodologies and statistical analyses that make you an expert consumer and evaluator of scientific studies. Huberman’s research focus may appear narrow and highly specialized from the outside, but that doesn’t mean that he isn’t better than 99% of people at digesting scientific literature, determining its rigor, and then explaining it to others.” – Ioakim Boutakidis, professor of child and adolescent studies at California State University at Fullerton.

“Two things to point out: One, Andrew Huberman is not claiming he knows it all. He invites experts or at least people who have knowledge, experience, and credentials in the field they discuss on the podcast. The second is that it is totally the listener’s choice what to get out of the information provided. I know there are so many people who benefit from the podcast. That should not make Andrew Huberman someone’s personal hero. His personal flaws are not my business.” – Victoria Libov

“It is just plain wrong to say that Dr. Huberman attempts to influence his audience’s behaviors. He is merely relaying scientific information and how it relates to the human experience. He has on multiple occasions stated that it is not his intent to recommend protocols or to tell people not to behave in certain ways, such as consuming alcohol.” – Craig Bond

Others saw his personal conduct as troubling:

“‘Unfairly targeted.’ I think all celebrities are fair game. He definitely will lose listeners. Every woman I know won’t be listening anymore, and it’s a shame. He helped me give up my chardonnay habit! :)” – Cheryl Gordon

“His podcast has been about his own personal journey, an obsessive pursuit of excellence with regard to sleep, nutrition, exercise. But this pursuit of excellence doesn’t extend to treatment of women in his life. It’s wild how he puts women in an “other” category so neatly.” – Gloria Hong

“You said you thought he would lose few (if any) followers as a result of the New York magazine article. I’m writing to tell you that he definitely lost one, and probably two because my husband watched some of his videos with me but never cared enough to seek them out on his own. I have no time for liars and misogynists.” – Leila Tite

And one take that I wholeheartedly agree with:

“A sleaze…. I am glad the women became friends.” – Rita Bernabei

Thanks to everyone who wrote in!

Spotify is expanding its premium audiobook program to Canada, Ireland, and New Zealand

Spotify has been making headway in its goal to become a major player in the audiobook market. While the a la carte model it launched with has failed to take off in a major way, its inclusion of 15 hours of audiobook listening for premium subscribers has brought new listeners into the space. On April 9th, the offering will be available in three more English-speaking markets: New Zealand, Canada, and Ireland.

Premium audiobook listening is already available in the US, UK, and Australia. It’s a smart way to get music and podcast listeners to check out audiobooks for the first time without risk or allow casual audiobook listeners to browse different titles. But on its own, it’s not going to produce the kind of margins Spotify is seeking. The way Spotify plans to monetize audiobooks is by turning those lighter listeners into more regular audiobook consumers who will be willing to pay for a title straight out or buy a 10-hour top-up for $12.99.

Those purchases are still very much hindered by Apple’s stranglehold on how apps sell digital goods and services. But Spotify is very much building for a future where the very real momentum for increasing tech regulation breaks down some of those barriers.

NYT rolls out new audio narration feature

Axios reports that The New York Times is revamping its audio narration for articles. This week, 10 percent of users of the NYT’s site, app, and audio app will be able to listen to the automated narrations. Three-quarters of the outlet’s articles are enabled for narration, and the plan is to expand it to 100 percent.

The main NYT app also has a new Listen tab, which includes podcast episodes as well as selected article narrations. One function I like about the updated app: you can play a podcast from the Listen tab and continue listening to your episode or article while browsing around the app. A little widget follows you as you browse, so you can easily click back into the episode.

Report: Apple Podcasts gives top billing to shows that participate in paid subscription program

Getting a prime spot on Apple Podcasts’ Browse page can be a real boost for podcasts. According to Semafor, those spots are routinely given to podcasts that participate in Apple Podcasts Subscriptions. Like with all other digital services (see Spotify blurb above), Apple gets a cut as high as 30 percent of that subscription revenue.

The report makes explicit what seemed to already be apparent — that podcasts that are part of the program get better promotion. An anonymous podcast executive told Semafor reporter Maxwell Tani that Apple executives said outright that offering subscriptions would give them a better shot of appearing on the Browse page. It’s pay-to-play, Apple style! A representative from Apple did not return request for comment.

That’s all for now! I’ll be back with Insiders on Thursday. As for the rest of you, see you next week.

Podcast listening is on the rise — even if downloads are down

2024-03-29T17:34:09-04:00

The talk of the industry has been the fact that most major podcasts have experienced a dip in downloads because of how Apple iOS 17 changed the way automatic downloads work. Even shows considered safe, like This American Life, have seen a decline of around 20 percent. But as we discuss (frequently!!), downloads do not equate to listens, which is why it is always good to get some different data in. Edison Research published its annual Infinite Dial report yesterday and found a bit of good news: 47 percent of Americans aged 12 and up listen to podcasts on a monthly basis, which is five points higher than last year.

It’s the biggest jump Edison has recorded since 2019, when it recorded a six-point increase. It indicates that even as the industry is still working out the kinks on the business side, podcast listening is becoming a more regular part of the American media diet. Edison found that the proportion of weekly listeners increased, as well, going from 31 percent for Americans 12 and over to 34 percent. They estimate that is about 98 million people.

Edison’s figures are based on survey data, not raw download numbers. Given the chaos with podcast data lately, that is a good thing. It doesn’t mean the data is gospel, but it does add more nuance to our understanding of how the public (not just podcast diehards) are interacting with the medium.

There’s a lot more to dig into, including social media usage, smart speaker ownership, and audiobook listening. You can read the full report here.

Lightning Round

I will have more on this Tuesday, but Forbes and the Houston Chronicle report that Ted Cruz’s podcast deal with iHeartMedia is more lucrative than previously believed. Although he does not get a salary, iHeart-owned network Premiere Networks gives at least some of the advertising revenue from the show to a super PAC supporting Cruz’s campaign. So far, iHeart has given more than $630,000 to the Truth and Courage super PAC.
Bloomberg reports that mobile games are still being used to inflate podcast metrics. A company called MowPod works with publishers of some of the top podcasts to incentivize mobile game players to follow their shows. Clients reportedly include Wondery, Lemonada, and Alex Cooper.
In addition to appearing at a major fundraiser together last night, Presidents Joe Biden, Barack Obama, and Bill Clinton recorded an episode of SmartLess together. The photo opp was… something.
PRX is planning a pair of Podcast Creator Summits this year for podcasters who are early in their careers. The events, which will take place in Washington, DC, in May and Atlanta in June, will offer attendees seminars, training, and room to network. And if there is one thing I have learned from Hot Pod Summit, it’s that podcasters simply looooove to network.
Wondery’s marketing chief, Bladimiar Norman, spoke with The Hollywood Reporter about the network’s marketing revamp. Part of that includes strategically timing shows rather than just releasing them when they are ready, such as pushing business pods around Tax Day or true crime pods during Halloween.
PBS NewsHour did a segment on the podcast industry, which includes footage and interviews from On Air Fest in February. Check it out!

(Almost) anything goes for AI in podcasting

2024-03-28T16:30:00-04:00

I am working on a segment for The Vergecast on the use of AI in podcasting, and I thought I would give you all a little preview of my conversation with Emily Poler, a commercial litigator who specializes in issues of intellectual property and technology.

I first spoke with Poler last fall, and since then, there have been a number of developments indicating how AI may be managed within podcasting. In the absence of policy explicitly dealing with the subject, companies have made little pivots and rules hemming in AI use. Earlier this month, The Ringer’s union eked out a win by requiring Spotify to get consent from staffers to clone their voices — except in cases of translation. Meanwhile, Apple Podcasts and YouTube now require creators to disclose the use of AI in their work. Tennessee, one of the major centers of the music industry in the US, passed a law aimed at protecting music artists from having their voices cloned.

The rules and norms around AI are rapidly evolving. Below, I talk to Poler about how podcasters can use AI in their shows and what practices could get them into trouble.

This interview has been condensed and edited for clarity.

Say someone’s making a podcast and they want to clone the voice of a famous person. Maybe they have editorial reasons for this — they could want to do a voiceover for what’s a written social media post — or they have some other need to incorporate that. Are there any legal restrictions preventing them from doing so?

There are two avenues of legal attack there. One is the right of publicity statutes that limit the ability of another person to use, it can be anybody’s or it can be a celebrity’s, image, voice, or likeness in some capacity. That’s one area. And the other area is going to be under both federal and state unfair competition law. The federal law is called the Lanham Act, and there are prohibitions creating a situation where it seems like a celebrity is endorsing a product or is affiliated with the product.

There could be situations where, if you used what appears to be a celebrity’s voice in connection with a podcast — for example, you create an AI-generated clip of what appears to be somebody reading their X, Threads, or Instagram post — the issue that’s going to come up is whether it appears that that person cooperated or participated in the making of the podcast. And I think that’s where you’re going to see potential problems.

One other thing to keep in mind is that there’s a pretty significant First Amendment issue underlying all of these laws, particularly on the right of publicity. I think in every state law where there is a right of publicity — and about two-thirds of states have a right of publicity law of some shape, manner, or form — those laws only apply in the commercial context. The next question is, “Well, what’s commercial?” and it’s a pretty common understanding that commercial means the podcast has sponsors, and therefore, it’s commercial. No. That’s not what commercial means in this context. Commercial means that it is literally an advertisement. So you can’t have Britney Spears marketing your local Kroger or ShopRite if she has not, in fact, consented to do that. The New York Times has advertisements and makes money and is quote, unquote commercial, but it’s still in large part protected by the First Amendment, even though it has commercial aspects and is a for-profit business.

Say you wanted to incorporate Britney Spears’ voice without her consent in your podcast and then sold advertising on it but didn’t use her voice for the advertising. That’s still within bounds?

Probably. Maybe. But, you know, the way our legal system works is that we sort of invent the rules as we go along. So what’s going to happen is somebody’s going to take Britney Spears or Joe Biden or Donald Trump or whoever and use their voice in a podcast, and that person is going to sue, and then we’re going to see what the courts think of it. And it’s going to depend heavily on the specifics of the particular case.

With that said, if I were a podcaster and I was thinking about using an AI-generated voice, particularly of somebody famous, I would be very, very careful to disclose what I was doing. Before the rise of AI, if an actor was reading somebody’s letters or social media posts or whatever, you would have a disclosure saying this is a reenactment of such and such.

I would also be very careful in promoting the podcast to not make it seem as if Britney Spears is promoting the podcast. I don’t know why Britney Spears jumped into my head, but that’s where we are.

She can be our stand-in famous person.

She’s my stand-in famous person for today. I would be very, very careful about the advertising or the promotion of that podcast and not use anything more than is absolutely necessary. I would be very careful not to suggest in any way that Britney Spears actually appeared on the podcast, is associated with the podcast, is sponsoring the podcast, or endorses the podcast.

Apple Podcasts now requires in its new terms of service that you disclose whether you’re using AI in your podcast. I’m curious, since things get decided on a case-by-case basis, is this also something that may come up through the platforms, that they may decide these are the things you need to do in order to be in our space, and that’s how we see movement?

That’s certainly going to be part of it. I don’t think it’s going to be the whole story. There are going to be lawsuits, and those lawsuits are going to get decided, and those will give podcast creators, celebrities, and the rest of us some guidance as to what the rules of the road are.

With the platforms, there’s an ongoing dispute that we’re having sort of in society writ large about what are the roles of these platforms in policing the content that’s on them. We’re seeing that with X and the “anything goes” [attitude] versus some people pulling their blogs down off of Substack because they’re okay with Nazis. So I think there’s a wider discussion being had about what the role of the platforms is and what they’re going to regulate. I think that’s what you’re seeing with the terms of use from Apple and from YouTube.

Bill Maher expands podcast operation with a controversial host

2024-03-27T14:15:00-04:00

This is Hot Pod, The Verge’s newsletter about podcasting and the audio industry. Sign up here for more.

Hello! I know many of you are in LA for Podcast Movement Evolutions. I am not, so feel free to reach out with gossip.

Today, New York Magazine publishes a polarizing profile of podcast star Andrew Huberman, Slate takes home the award for Podcast of the Year, and Bill Maher launches a new network.

New York Magazine publishes lengthy feature on Andrew Huberman and his messy personal life

I don’t begrudge you if you haven’t had the time to read New York Magazine’s 8,000-word cover story on Andrew Huberman. While much of the piece focuses on how he juggled multiple affairs as he was in a long-term relationship (spoiler: all the women become friends!), it also looks at the culture of bro podcasts and how they have become surprisingly central, if not exactly reliable, sources of information.

Huberman, a neurobiology professor at Stanford, rose to prominence several years ago by making science explainer videos and appearing as a guest on shows like The Joe Rogan Experience and Lex Fridman Podcast. His show, Huberman Lab, launched in 2021 and currently ranks in the top 15 podcasts on both Spotify and Apple Podcasts. And, according to Chartable, it has the fifth-highest reach of any podcast in the world.

The author, NYMag features writer Kerry Howley, argues that Huberman’s academic background gives him a sheen of legitimacy, even though his usual pet topics — fitness, mental wellness, and why you should never ever have even a drop of alcohol — have nothing to do with his specialty of visual-system wiring.

“How comfortable one feels with the science propagated on Huberman Lab depends entirely on how much leeway one is willing to give a man who expounds for multiple hours a week on subjects well outside his area of expertise,” Howley writes. I think we have learned that listeners will give their hosts of choice a lot of leeway when it comes to science.

Peers and fans of Huberman have come to his defense. Focusing on the elements about Huberman’s personal life, Fridman called the profile a “hit piece,” and conservative thinkpieces are cropping up claiming he is being unfairly targeted. It goes back to the mindset that independent hosts like Huberman, Fridman, and Rogan are more trustworthy than mainstream media sources. It seems unlikely that Huberman will lose many (if any) fans over the piece, though it may put him more on the defensive than before.

What did you think of the Huberman profile? Feel free to reach out at ariel.shapiro@theverge.com.

Bill Maher expands podcast operation with a controversial host

Ah, a throwback to a simpler time when celebrities launched podcast networks. Bill Maher, who hosts the podcast Club Random in addition to Real Time with Bill Maher on HBO, announced today that his podcast operation is launching a new show hosted by controversial former ESPN host Sage Steele.

Steele, who formerly co-hosted SportsCenter, was temporarily taken off the air in 2021 after she made comments on a non-ESPN podcast criticizing the network’s covid vaccine mandate. She settled a lawsuit with ESPN last year and left the network, saying she did so in order to “exercise my first amendment rights more freely.” Seems like a good fit for Maher, who relishes pissing people off.

Club Random Productions, as the new network is called, will also feature new shows from Smashing Pumpkins frontman Billy Corgan and Limp Bizkit singer Fred Durst, according to Variety. The network will also partner with former basketball star Kevin Garnett on his show KG Certified.

Spotify is testing video courses in the UK

I did not see Spotify’s own version of MasterClass coming, but it does make a certain amount of sense. On Monday, the company announced that it is partnering with educational producers like BBC Maestro and Skillshare as part of a trial for UK users to access video lessons on the platform.

As part of the trial, free and premium users in the UK will be able to access two lessons of a course for free before being prompted to purchase additional lessons. Spotify said in a release that half of its premium subscribers have listened to educational or self-help podcasts.

It seems that the courses would operate on an a la carte system similar to the first iteration of audiobooks. Given the difficulty of navigating users off the platform to purchase products, that part of the audiobook business has not yet taken off. But perhaps with new tech regulations in Europe and, potentially, the US, that business model may prove to be more fruitful down the line.

Slow Burn: Becoming Justice Thomas gets top honor at the Ambie Awards

Last night in LA, The Podcast Academy held its fourth annual Awards for Excellence in Audio (aka The Ambies), honoring some of the top shows of the year. Among the winners were some buzzy titles, including Weight For It (Best Indie Podcast), Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus from Lemonada Media (Best Interview Podcast), and New Heights with Jason and Travis Kelce (Best Sports Podcast… 🤔).

For Podcast of the Year, Slow Burn: Becoming Justice Thomas from Slate beat out fellow nominees, including Embedded: Taking Cover from NPR, Next Year in Moscow from The Economist, and 50 Years of Hip-Hop from KEXP. You can find the full list of winners here.

The big shakeup in conservative podcasting

2024-03-22T17:05:00-04:00

This one was months in the making. Conservative outlet The Daily Wire (TDW) has parted ways with Candace Owens, the buzzy (and controversial) podcaster who has been criticized in recent months for spreading antisemitic conspiracy theories. Her departure marks a turning point for The Daily Wire, long the dominant name in right-wing podcasting, and indicates that the space may be moving in a direction away from its brand of conservatism.

The relationship between Owens and TDW started to sour after the October 7th Hamas attack in Israel. Ben Shapiro, co-owner of TDW and the network’s biggest star, is staunchly pro-Israel, while Owens is decidedly not. In November, video started circulating of him calling her commentary on the war “disgraceful,” prompting a very public fight that, while messy, did not immediately end in her departure.

The issue reignited this week as Owens has become less shy about saying any number of things about Jewish people (none of them good!), so much so that she earned the praise of white supremacist Nick Fuentes, according to Media Matters. The report caught the attention of the Anti-Defamation League, and it blew up from there. Friday morning, TDW CEO Jeremy Boreing posted on X that “Daily Wire and Candace Owens have ended their relationship.”

Soon after, Owens confirmed that she is “finally free,” assuring fans that she will be back on her individual YouTube channel soon, where she has 1.47 million subscribers. She has also been making the rounds on other shows, including The Breakfast Club and The Joe Budden Podcast. Add that to her combined 10 million followers between Instagram and X, and you have a pretty massive audience that is not tied to TDW.

In November, it became clear that she was itching to go her own way, so this does not come as much of a shock. But Owen’s departure does further split the conservative podcasting space, and in a way that moves it further from the Republican mainstream. Whatever misgivings you (or I!) may have about Ben Shapiro, who has long reigned in the space, he has a decent track record when it comes to not spreading and actually countering misinformation. Owens… less so. And with a podcasting ecosystem that is now home to an independent Tucker Carlson and still, somehow, Steve Bannon, we could see the misinformation problem get even worse.

Lightning round

Search Engine, the new-ish podcast from former Reply All host PJ Vogt, is launching a premium subscription. Among the perks are standard fare like ad-free episodes and bonus content, but also “virtual board meetings” with the Search Engine team. On a related note, the show recently put out an episode about the collapse of ad-based media, if you want to feel bad.
Following Neil Young’s return to Spotify, Joni Mitchell is apparently back, as well. You can’t fight City Hall.
Audio-focused agency Ad Results Media has a new CEO. Jordan Fox started this month after eight years at Laundry Service.
Evolutions by Podcast Movement is next week in LA. I will not be there, but please feel free to share gossip.
Ear Hustle from Radiotopia is being turned into a docuseries. The project is being produced by Lori McCreary and Morgan Freeman.
Senator Bernie Sanders is launching a podcast aptly called Bernie: The Podcast.
Basketball stars LeBron James and JJ Redick have launched a podcast, surprisingly, without a corporate partner or sponsor. I guess they really don’t need the money! The show debuted at number two on Spotify and Apple’s podcast charts.
One of the marquee amenities at a new luxury apartment building going up in Brooklyn: a podcast studio. I would love to know what rich people podcasts are being made there. That’s a show!