Long before Steve Jobs was the unstoppable force of nature atop Apple, shipping hit product after hit product, he was practically run out of the company after a series of bad product and management decisions. But as Geoffrey Cain argues in his new book, Steve Jobs in Exile: The Untold Story of NeXT and the Remaking of an American Visionary, the 12 years Jobs spent outside of Apple turned him into the leader the world came to know. Cain joins the show to talk about Jobs’ experiences at NeXT and Pixar, how Jobs learned to be a successful leader, and the true power — and danger — of the reality distortion field.